If you'd like to see this in video format, head over to Patreon Tamara: Welcome back to the podcast, everyone. I'm, your host, Tamara, and today we are discussing our January buddy read thriller title, the first of 2024. If you'd like to see this in video format, head on over to Patreon. You can watch it and see our faces without commercials. Along with ad, free podcast episodes, you'll gain access to after shows, reading vlogs, and other exclusive content. If you are not into Patreon, don't worry. You can head on over to the Spreaker app and get the audio version of the after shows and some exclusive content. Again, it's audio only, so you won't be able to see reading vlogs and other things that require video. So if you still like video, Patreon is the way to go. You can join me and my two co hosts over on the book clubs app for even more book chats, including a discord server and monthly book club meetings. Please subscribe and like the podcast wherever you're listening. And if you want to reach out to me, you can find me pretty much everywhere at shelf addiction. Joining me today is feature co host classy from the bookish virtual assistant. Welcome back, classy. Classy: Hey, Tamara. Every time you say that, I feel like I should shorten it or something, because I'm like, it's a mouthful. Tamara: It's just me. I'm stumbling all over the place for the first two episodes. I mean, Casey had it, too. I'm like, I don't know. I took, like, a week off from doing anything, and I can't talk anymore. Classy: Got to get back into the groove, but hey, Tamara, how are you doing? Tamara: Hey, girl. Tamara: Hey. Happy new year. Yes. Classy: Happy 2024. Tamara: Yes. Tamara: Okay, tell everyone where they can find you online. Classy: you can find me at the bookish virtual assistant on Facebook and on the x, aka Twitter, Instagram. And I'm also using, classy green as well on all of those platforms. Today we are discussing the book bright young women, written by Jessica Knoll Tamara: All right, double duty. Yes, as always with book chats. Full spoilers. We talk full spoilers here. So you have been warned. Don't get mad. So today we are discussing the book bright young women, written by Jessica Knoll. The audiobook is narrated by Sutton Foster, Imani Jade Powers, Corey Brill, and Chris Henry Coffey. It was published on September 19, 2023, by Mary Sue Ritchie Books and Simon and Schuster Audio. The book is 384 pages in hardcover, and the unabridged audio comes in at, 12 hours and 58 minutes. Tamara: Classy. Tamara: Would you kindly share the synopsis? Classy: Absolutely. I believe this synopsis is as long as audiobook. But anywho, I'm on one today. I'm on one today. Tamara: I'm ready. January 1979. A serial killer has terrorized women across the Pacific Northwest Classy: January 1979. A serial killer has terrorized women across the Pacific Northwest. But his existence couldn't be further from the minds of the vibrant young women at the top sorority on Florida State University's campus in Tallahassee. Tonight is a night of promise, excitement, and desire. But Pamela Schumacher, president of the sorority, makes the unpopular decision to stay home, a decision that unwittingly saves her life. Startled awake at 03:00 a.m. By a strange sound, she makes the fateful decision to investigate. What she finds behind the door is a scene of implausible violence. Two of her sisters dead, two others maimed. Over the next few days, Pamela is thrust into a terrifying mystery inspired by the crime that's captivated public interest for, more than four decades. On the other side of the country, Tina Cannon has found peace in Seattle. After years of hardship, a chance encounter brings 25 year old Ruth Wachowski into her life. A young woman with painful secrets of her own. And the two form an instant connection when Ruth goes missing from Lake some mammish state park in broad daylight, surrounded by thousands of beachgoers on a beautiful summer day, Tina devotes herself to finding out what happened to her. When she hears about the tragedy in Tallahassee, she knows it's the man the papers refer to as the all american sex killer. Determined to make him answer for what he did to Ruth, she travels to Florida on a collision course with Pamela in one last impending tragedy. Bright young women is a true story about two women from opposite sides of the country who become sisters in their fervent pursuit of the truth. It proposes a new narrative inspired by evidence that's been glossed over for decades in favor of more salible headlines. That the so called brilliant and charismatic serial killer from Seattle was far more average than the countless books, movies, and primetime specials has led us to believe. And that it was these women whose lives he cut short who were the exceptional ones. Jessica Knowle's first book came out in 2015 and I gave it three stars Tamara: All right, so before we get into anything, even our first thoughts, I'd like to kind of give a little bit of our history with Jessica Knowle. Tamara: Okay. Tamara: just as a little, I guess, background. So I first read her first. I think it was her first book, luckiest, Girl alive in 2015. And I loved it. And, you know, five stars are hard to come by for me, but it was a five star read back in 2015. Would it be today? I don't know. I'm not going to reread it right. And, following that, I did read the favorite sister and I didn't love it as much. I gave it three stars. So when I saw this come up and I did get an arc a long time ago, I can't remember how I got it. I didn't ask for it, I don't think, I don't know. but it's been here for a while and of course the COVID art is really pretty to me. It's eye catching. So I said, sure, I'll read it. So this is why I recommended it because I had a history reading her and I really liked one and thought the other was okay. What's been your experience with her so far? Classy: I read, the luckiest girl alive and I gave her three stars. I can't remember what my, reasoning behind it. I believe it was her writing. I just felt like it was overdone. It was just too flourished or flowery or whatever, I can't remember. Like I said, I'm trying to see when I read it as well. I believe I read it when it came out. 2015 is when I read it and it was okay. It was like with that three star rating, I never went back to. I was never interested in my favorite sister. And I believe, if I'm not mistaken, when you mentioned my favorite sister, I believe I asked you about should I read it? And I think you did mention the three star. And I said, I'll pass. Tamara: Hm. Classy: Because I think that was around the same time. Because now my memory is being triggered. because I think that was like during my Mary Kubika, Jessica Noel, because I think they probably took out release, books around the same time. And I believe you had read like the next ones and you told me, ah, pass on it. Tamara: The favorite sister came out in 2018. So three years later, after luckiest girl alive. So it's been five years since we've gotten a book from Jessica Knowle. Classy: Yeah. This is a different one. It's a different style. Tamara: It definitely is. Classy: Yeah. Tamara: So when you finished the book or. Tamara: Audiobook, what did you think? Tamara: High level. Classy: High level. I thought it was way too long and I was glad it was over. Tamara: Okay, so that's all I finished. Tamara: I thought, Tamara: Damn, that was sad, fucked up. That's what I thought. I was like, oh my God, that is horrible. What a sad ass ending. But what other ending could you get with this subject matter? There is no other ending. Tamara: Yeah, so I was fine with it. Tamara: Because I love a realistic ending. So I was fine with the ending. But I kind of was like, damn, this conversation is going to be fun. Tamara: That's honestly what I thought. Tamara: So I guess we can just jump to it. You want to start with our critiques or what we like You want to start with our critiques or what we like? Classy: I want to kind of piggyback on what you said about that was a sad ending, which may even contribute to. Tamara: My, Classy: Review of this book, because this story has been told so many times that, granted, it is a reimagining of a true story. and maybe because I've heard this story so many times that it was just, like, mad to me. Granted not to, diminish the victims, which I did enjoy, and we'll talk about that later. But that may be my reason for my review, because it's like, here we go again. And, there was nothing surprising to me except for maybe, like, a few little transcripts, and it was reimagined. But I don't think. I couldn't get myself into that, mode. Jessica: I'm not well versed in the defendant Tamara: Okay. Tamara: But, yeah, I hear what you're saying on that, but I don't think I've watched a lot of stuff about the defendant. We're not going to say his name. We're going to say the defendant. Just like in the book, I've seen a few things. Like, I did not watch the movie that was referenced at the end of the book. Classy: Right. Tamara: With, what's his face. Classy: Zach Afron. Tamara: Zach Afron. I did not watch that. So I'm not well versed in the defendant, other than some things I've seen, I don't know, ten or 15 years ago, and I definitely haven't heard any podcast about it, because I just feel like I kind of know this story. I'm not going to seek it out. Right. But I feel like I did not know. And that's the thing. I kind of wanted to do some research, but I didn't. So on one hand, I'm like, well, we know it's based off of a true story, but I wish I could ask Jessica, are these characters based on true people? Are these characters actually 100% false? Classy: They're based on true characters. Tamara: Okay. Tamara: Because I had no clue about the woman that Tina is. Tamara: Or the woman that Pamela is. I did not know about these women. I just knew what the defendant did to a bunch of women. And that he died. Right. He was executed. Tamara: That's pretty much what I knew. And that he supposedly looked good and he defended himself. And all the highlights, the highlight read. Classy: Right. Tamara: But I found it really interesting. So if I had to compliment. I think the biggest compliment I can give is I actually liked how she told the story that we got essentially three points of view, but really told from two people in two timelines. Tamara: Right. Tamara: So Tina was definitely throughout the book. Tamara: But I don't think we ever actually. Tamara: Got her point of view. It was always told from Ruth's point of view. Tamara: And Tina was there, but it was Ruth talking. Tamara: Okay. Tamara: I feel like. So Ruth in 1974, now Ruth is Tina's, paramore, but at the end they seem like they were like legally. Classy: Partners or something because she was able to get her. Yeah, I think legal whole. Tamara: Yeah. Right. Tamara: So I feel like we saw Tina through Ruth's eyes in 1974. And then in 1978, we saw Tina through Pamela's eyes. Tamara: And also in present day, Pamela was telling the story. So Tina was never in the driver's seat of this story, which is very interesting and different. I'm like, okay, so she's a main character, but she's never in the narrative driver's seat. Classy: Right. Tamara: She's always there, but from other people's point of view, I thought that was really interesting and very different in storytelling. Classy: Yeah, I totally agree with that. but yeah, the two main characters and two point of views were, Ruth and Pamela. And as far as the characterization, Pamela, based on her story, she was, I believe, the sorority head sister or. Tamara: Whatever, and she's the president. Classy: Right. But in the real story, what happened is this girl had come in, Pamela. I can't remember who the real, character, the real victim's name is. she was coming in from a date with her boyfriend or whatever, and she was in the car and her boyfriend's headlights flashed into the bedroom of, one of the other of the two victims. And he thought he was caught. And when he came out, she saw his face, you know what I mean? So this is how she kind of reimagined the story. It was still the sorority person. and some of the characters, if I'm not mistaken, some of the character names may be similar, but yeah, they are based upon true characters. And I think the lakes, samamish, as far as Ruth, those are all true too, because he escaped, custody a few times and got away. and the university of Florida was his last. Classy: but yeah, I did enjoy that. the story was told in two different timelines with two different characters because a lot of. And, well, there was three different timelines because. Which was kind of off a little bit where they brought Pamela to a current day, more kind of. So yeah, there was three timelines. The current timeline wasn't used as much. do I do agree with that? She did a great job with the time jumping. A few times I couldn't. I was like, are we? Tamara: Because. Classy: The time jump wasn't that different. It was only like what, four years maybe years. Yeah. So sometimes, ah, it kind of threw me off because it was like, where are we? Tamara: Which 70 time author used the. Now I don't know if you looked at the fit hard copy, but I know the narrator said this, but each chapter heading, there's no chapter number. Yeah, it says pamela When listening to audio, sometimes you forget which timeline you're in Miami 79 day 555. So we know this was 555 days after the incident. Tamara: Yeah. Tamara: And when it's like now today, it's like 14,000 days after the incident. Classy: Yeah. Tamara: It jumped back and forth. So if it's Ruth, it will always say Ruth 1974. So that kind of helps keep it clear. But I think listening on audio, I have found myself rewinding a couple of times to catch the date because once. Classy: You kind of get like in that middle part or even after you get an audio, even after you get like after that first paragraph or so you forget. Classy: You forget like which timeline am I in? And I had the book and I should have pulled it out to follow along and that may have helped me. but yeah, you're right. and yeah, the narrator did a good job with doing the chapters and stating what year and what day from the crime. Tamara: Yeah. I think this is a medium paced book. I wouldn't say it wasn't fast Tamara: Before I get to the plotty stuff, pacing, I think this is a medium paced book. I wouldn't say to me it wasn't slow, but it definitely wasn't fast because it's definitely something that will take you. I feel like this took days to get through because not only it's not like I want to binge this type of content, it gets in your head a little bit. It's pretty bad. And I think it hits differently because, you know, this is based on a true story versus some of the other thrillers where we know it's totally fictional. So it hits a little different. And for me, I was like small dosing it for ten days. Tamara: Yeah, I felt like it was a. Classy: Slow, there were moments where it dragged ass, and then it picked up. I felt like there were moments where I was totally in. And then she got to a point where it was repetitive and I got the repetition because she was trying to hone in into the reader that we need to focus on the victims and back then women were treated differently and their views weren't. they were bright young women. They were the elite, but still, men saw them as less than. So. But, yeah, I felt like at moments, it kind of, it dragged. Tamara: so, yeah, I didn't think the. Classy: Pacing was, there were a few, like I said, it was a few moments where I felt like the pacing was pretty medium and it was exciting and it's like, what's going to happen next? And then it kind of m ebbed. Tamara: Ebb and flowed a little bit. Like, okay, yeah, that's fair to the plot stuff. So I have to admit some m of the stuff, like when we had that attack at the university in that sorority house, that was very tense and suspenseful for me, reading that part. Ruth says she learned a couple of lessons from Pamela's testimony Like, when Pamela wakes up, she's like, the lights know? And I can imagine that frame of mind, you're like, who left the light on going down here, picking up the trap? Who left know? She's angry about it. And then she hears someone. Like, she hears a bump, she hears a noise, and then she kind of hears someone running above her on the second floor. Tamara: Right? Tamara: And I'm like, oh, shit. But the crazy thing is, she is such a strong person. And strong, you can tell she's a strong person immediately because even the detective says most people would run the opposite way. You ran toward where you thought the person was running because you wanted to. Classy: Because she was the house mother and she took her position seriously. She was a very serious, she was perfect. Pam, or Pam perfect Pam, perfect. Tamara: Yeah. Classy: So she took her role seriously. and even in her reaction when she saw her sisters in their state of, injury and maim and whatever, and reporting and calling the parents, she was very mature. Yeah. she handled herself like a pro. Tamara: She did. Although I have to say, I learned a couple of lessons from this character, the very first lesson, and it happens pretty quickly. And I knew the minute she came out of her mouth, it was the wrong thing to say. She said, for a minute I thought it looked like Denise's boyfriend. The minute that came out of her mouth, I said, now they're going to be using that bias. Now they're going to want it to be him. So the lesson from that is when you're giving a statement about something, you watch what comes out of your mouth, because confirmation bias is real. And this is a perfect example of the police doing that. Even though she clarified, and she was very clear through the years, every time she spoke to someone after that. Yeah, I did think that first, but I saw him, and that was not him because his nose looked like this and this and that. Classy: Right. Tamara: But they couldn't hear anything past. I thought it was Roger whatever his. Classy: Name was, because it was her first. like you said, you got to watch it because that was the first thing that came out of her mouth. And a lot of times they want to go with your first thought, your first. Yeah, I agree. I was like, oh, shit, it's going to be hard to refute that. Tamara: And it followed her all the way to the trial. She had to basically beg the judge to let her on the stand. She really had to prove that, no, I was not influenced at all by Tina. I saw what. I'm not being pressured or anything. And yes, I said this, but is she, like, literally is the best lawyer? She turned into the best lawyer. Tamara: Yeah. Classy: And like her dad said, thank God you have 2020 vision or whatever, because he knew that if she wore glasses, and I guess this kind, now that I say it out loud, that even though her dad knew, with her vision being as great as it was, as it was, that her testimony would, play in her favor, but being a woman and then her saying that first statement, they still discounted her statement. which again, Jessica emphasized a lot in this book, how women's points of view were discounted. the stereotypes, the prejudiced, everything. Tamara: Yeah. Tamara: It was, like, really shocking. And to think in that moment, I could visualize that scene where she stops and she sees him at the door, and he turns and looks dead in her face. Classy: Right. And it's like, did he see me? Tamara: But, it was clear he didn't see her. He would have came for her. He didn't see her because she was being hidden. Like there was a shadow. Even though it was bright, it was like she was just far enough back, right, that he couldn't see her. Yeah, but the idea of that. And then to go upstairs and find what you found. Tamara: Yeah, I'll be fucked up. Tamara: For years, she had to have, PTSD. Just even thinking about what could have happened to her had he seen her. Classy: Yeah, she dodged a bullet. Tamara: Oh, my gosh. And then just. The police just. Oh, my gosh. So I really liked hearing all of this from the witness point of, like, this weighed a lot with me because I feel like the witness point of view of Pamela really balanced the victim point of view of Ruth, because if it was all victims, it would have been so much. It would have been too much. Tamara: Okay. Tamara: So I think that kind of also added to the balance. Not just that it was two women that were tied to this, but distinctly. We have someone that is like a witness and someone who is a though, you know, even with Ruth, we didn't see her victim part until the very end, which was also good. Classy: Yeah. And that was the other thing that I understood why Jessica did it. But then it was, Why? Tamara: Because she had to see it to the finish line. Tamara: Well, I got that part. Classy: I got that part. Some of the way this story was told bored me to death But the thing was that, if we bring in Tina. Classy: And I think this is probably where I felt like it dragged ass because granted Tina is coming in, to make sure he is captured or that we catch this guy. Classy: But we hear this long ass story about Tina from Ruth's point of view. Classy: And Tina is not a victim. Granted, she's the savior or the person to She won the wrong for Ruth, Tamara: Because her own family didn't give a true, true. So she needed a champion. Classy: Right. But I don't know, it just seemed like it was. And those were those moments of lull for me. And I do get it. I really do. Because like I've told you before, I m have a niece who was murdered and we still have not found her, murderer. so I do feel, Tina's pain. and I think I would go as far as Tina too, but there was just something about the way some of this was told that it bored me at point. It just bored me to death until we really got. And I mean, I get it because she was trying to give us the backstory of Ruth, and for us to get the backstory of Ruth, she had to kind of do that. but it was just something, I don't know. Like I said, maybe it was because I just was not feeling it. It was like. Tamara: So you just didn't want to hear about, Classy: Was maybe what I was expecting from this story was, I thought I was going to learn more about Ruth. Tamara: But we did learn a lot about Ruth. Yeah, we learned. Like, let's talk about. There was something that just didn't click with me about this book Well, okay, so let me just say, I think that we got the whole background of Tina because she was a major character from everyone else's eyes. So it was important to know why she was so invested. Classy: Yeah. Tamara: And it was important to know how she had the ability to do the things she was doing. Like we had to know how she had the money. We had to know how she was able to sustain this for so many. You know, we need to know all those things about her. And we saw the base of that through Ruth. But we also learned about Ruth. We learned that her home life was horrible. Horrible. And I think that her home life and how she was raised led to her death because she felt sorry for the defendant when she met him. And that was another lesson. I learned a lesson from Ruth, also. You listen to your damn intuition. She's talking to him. She's questioning him. She doesn't really take him at face value. Tamara: Right. Tamara: she sees things about him, but because she's used to pacifying everyone, trying to please everyone, I feel like she felt bad. She said she felt bad for him. She got up and went with him. Classy: Yeah. And, I mean, that's a thing for women, period. Especially during that time frame, is we were nurtured. Tamara: Yeah. Classy: Today, too. that nurturing, oh, mothering kind of thing. but, yeah, I get all your points. I see them. but I'll give a fuck. You're still born clicking with me. I just don't know what it was. I got it. I really did. her mother here, this woman, her mother was very self centered here. She lost her dad, and the mother was like, I should be the one in grief counseling, not you. It was my husband. And she wanted to, compare grief. And that's something that I totally disagree with. Your grief and my grief are two different things, and no one's grief is better than another. because your relationship with a person is. Tamara: Right. Classy: and you cannot put a measure on it. M but, yeah, I got it. I understood. I totally got that. We had to get to where they met. The meet cute, if we want to call it in romance, that part. I got that. And, Tamara: I don't know. Classy: It was like. I can't explain it, but it was just something that just did not click with me in this book. I get all your points. I see it. but there was just something like. Tamara: I get it. Classy: Yeah. Nothing wowed me. not to say that there weren't any things that I didn't like about it, but I, don't know. I can't explain it. I can't put my finger on it. It just got to a point where, you know when you're not interested in a book because you have to remember that you need to go back and finish this book. Tamara: I had that experience already this month. Classy: Yeah. And it's like, oh, yeah, I got to finish this book. But it was never a moment where I felt like I was like, I couldn't wait to see what happens next. I can't wait. and then I felt like, too. And I don't know if this, relationship with Ruth and, Tina. Were they lesbians? Tamara: They were. Classy: They were lesbians. But I'm saying the true characters that she's basing. Tamara: Oh, you mean the real people. Classy: Nowadays, they got to throw some of these characters in here for likability. and I didn't know know. I never did look know if a was a real character or not. I know. You know, because she was a know, and it was just like, oh, here we go. Tamara: M know. Classy: Here we go. And, granted, I know they totally. I am not against the lgbt community, but sometimes I just wonder, when it comes to writing, is this genuine, or did you just throw this in here? Because now you can say, I've addressed that community. This podcast is brought to you by the shelf addiction merch store Tamara: Okay, so I want to tell you why I think it's genuine, but let's do that after a commercial break. Ready? Break it. Yes. Okay, so, you guys, please check out these commercials while listening to those. Hop on over and check out the book review journal. It's not too late to kick off 2024 with a new journal to write all your little bookish stuff, so it's available right now. And also, we'll be right back. Stay tuned. Today's episode is brought to you by the shelf addiction merch store. Check out all the bookish t shirts, notebooks, mugs, and more. Don't miss out on these original designs. Perfect for any book nerd. Support the podcast and visit shelfdiction.com merch and pick up your next favorite bookish item. I do not know if Ruth's character was a lesbian or not All right, guys, we are back. So, let me tell you why I don't think that the lesbians were a check mark for this book. Classy: Okay? Tamara: So, like you, I do not know the roots. I do not know if the real person that is Ruth's character was a lesbian or not. And I don't know if Tina is real or not. I'm thinking she is, but I don't know for sure. but the fact that the author took such pains to go back and explain the history of Ruth exploring being a lesbian or not knowing what that is, but exploring with her best friend, who was her brother's wife, she went back into that. And then also, there was even a little bit. Now, one thing I wasn't sure if I liked was that poor Ruth felt like she was a lesbian because her father was gay in hiding it. So I don't think that kind of thing can be passed down genetically. Classy: Yeah, I caught that, too. But I think now with that part I did get where. Tamara: I got the. Classy: Feeling that she recognized that her dad was different. And then later on she kind of felt like, how dare you put me in a facility to make me better when I'm just like you. And not to say it was, he's. Tamara: Been there, I think because when she went, he's like, it's not a bad place. That made me think he'd been there for treatment. Tamara: M okay. Tamara: And I think that's why he felt bad about it until the wife was like, you're going to do this? Tamara: Yeah. Tamara: And then he was like, okay, well, I think that he was under pressure from the wife to do it and he'd been there. Tamara: Okay. Classy: Yeah, because she m mentioned his body type. So it almost was like he might have been more of. Yeah, because she's like, he had a pear. Was. He had very feminine qualities. and now I will say, and now that you bring that up, that Jessica did do her research. Classy: She did do. but yeah, those are some really good points for her to bring that. because I don't think it was. Tamara: Just like, let me throw a lesbian in or some lesbians. I feel like she went far back enough in the story to justify that outcome. And both Tina and Denise, I'm sorry, not Denise. Tamara: Ruth were married to men. Tamara: Remember Ruth was an adult. Tamara: She married a guy and so did Tina. But Tina married, oh, poor Tina. She married this old man that was molesting her all her fucking life, basically. Classy: Yeah. Tamara: So it's like, it's a mess. And I gotta say, I thought at first the author was trying to say because I could not tell why Ruth had such a problem with her father, why she needed to go to a, club to talk about grieving someone you basically despise. M and I'm like, did he do something to her? It took a minute for her us to hear the roots of that, but at first, at face value, I'm like, oh my God, was she molested by her father or something? That's what I thought initially, yeah. And then when it all came out, I'm like, well, thank God it's not that because we just then had to deal with that with Tina, but her. Tamara: Parents just let that happen. Tamara: Tina's parents let her get abused by this old ass man and they married her off to him for money. Tamara: Yep. Classy: Because they knew it was payday. She never had to work a day in her life. And all you had to do was, ah. And the thing is, these things happen more often than not. Tamara: Yeah. Tamara: So I don't know. I believed it. I believed them. I believed it. It was fine for me. I didn't have a problem with it. Tamara: Yeah. Classy: I don't know. It just kind of that subplot of the lesbian subplot, it was just like. And granted, like you said, I think it was real, but it was just like, maybe this is it. What was the importance of that subplot of her being a lesbian What was the importance of that subplot of her being a lesbian? How did that tie in to the importance of this story of the killing? Tamara: Well, I don't know if it ties into the killing per se, but I feel like it ties into Tina being her champion. If she was straight and her and Tina were friends, would Tina have been invested like she is? Classy: She was my best friend. Tamara: Yeah, I would. Classy: That's just me though. Classy: But yeah, I think that may be now, if I say it that way, that may be my reasoning behind it is. Okay. Tamara: So why this? Classy: But I can see now if she wants to bring it in as a love triangle, and the strong emotions that they had for each other, that relationship and how it grew. yeah, because Tina basically made Ruth a much stronger person and standing up to her parent or her mother because her dad, had passed away. But she made her come out of her shell. She was dressing nicer, and she saw she was becoming more confident and standing up to her little snotty nose nephew. Tamara: Who, that little kid. Classy: She should have fed him a plain onion sandwich. anyway, said you killed my granddaddy or something. It was just like, And I can't even remember how he died. Did they ever say how a man died? Agree? Tamara: I don't think so. But in my mind I was like, did he commit suicide? Classy: That's what I was thinking too. Was he struggling with his sexuality and just couldn't take it anymore? And just like, I'm done here. Tamara: How else could she influence him dying? Classy: Right? Like, did she confront him? Classy: Like I said, I wasn't sure about that. Especially with this being a so called crime fiction kind of, book. True crime, whatever. Tamara: But I also liked it for balance, too. Tamara: Okay. Tamara: Because if it was all. Okay, let's think. It's all the cases, all the women, like multiple women from their point of view, talking about the defendant. Or that would have been. It was already a lot. But I feel like if we didn't have some normal as can be in these crazy situations, I feel like it just would have been like watching a true crime documentary on Netflix or something. It would have been so sterile. Classy: Okay. Tamara: And without. I feel like the author attempted to get us to care about Ruth. That's why we waited till the end. We waited until the end to see. And it was closed door. We didn't see. That scene was so sad to me. Classy: She brought it. Tamara: He did assault her and then ties her up. He brings someone else to the same place, to the same house. And the girl fights him, but she dies. And the scene was like, I didn't have long, but I had long enough to go back. Oh my God, it's so sad. Classy: It's so sad. It was. Classy: To hear it in her voice. Yeah, I will say that. To hear her tell us, like, I'm. Tamara: About to die, but I can think about home and Tina or something. I teared. I'm like, that is so sad. Classy: Yeah, I will say that that ending was granted, I said, who? I'm glad that's over. Tamara: But. Classy: Yeah, but it was a very. She did a great job with the end of that story. Because now that part, the end, I was all in. Because it's like here we've heard. And I think that was a great crescendo to her story. We cared about Ruth because we heard all the trauma she dealt with Because here this whole time we've heard Tina's, about Tina and we've kind of heard her story. And now we get to how she passed away. Horrible. Tamara: Think about, according to the know, she made this character turn a, major corner in her growth. Her character growth. Classy: And then. Tamara: Hey. So the girl had problem with acne. Guess what? She got away from her parents and the shit cleared up. She got away from her family. Her skin cleared up, she started dressing cuter, she was feeling better. And finally she stood up to her fucking family. And she was skipping off to tell. Tamara: Tina about how she stood up to her family. Yeah. Ah. Classy: At the beach in a beautiful bikini, just living her best life and coming into her own person. Tamara: And then she meets that asshole, like, are you fucking kidding me? Tamara: Yeah. Tamara: I was so enraged. That is so fucked up. Classy: Yeah. Tamara: So if she wanted me to feel extremely horrible about Ruth, she succeeded. She can check the box. Because I felt emotionally upset about it. And I think that's why we got again, so much depth to, you know, we get to know Tina's motivations and the relationship that she had, ah, with Tina, which drives her so much. And then when the death came for Ruth, we felt it because she wasn't just like, did we feel Denise's death? No, we didn't. No, we didn't. That sucked. That was Pamela's friend. But I did not feel it. That happened fast. Classy: In the same way. Tamara: All about Pamela, right? Tamara: Yeah. This. Tamara: We cared about Ruth because we heard all the trauma she dealt with m. And she's in a good place. And this fucking happens to mean grant. Classy: Yeah. We knew that, Denise was a beautiful girl and everybody loved her and blah, blah, blah. But it was still nothing compared to, the connection that we got, from Ruth. And, her death. Nothing like, Tamara: Was. Tamara: And it just made it even more horrible. Like her mother. Like the scenes where her mother confronted Pamela at the. What do you call it? Not a hearing, but, like, Classy: the case. Classy: Oh, gosh. Tamara: The trial. There we go. Tamara: Yes. Tamara: Like, she was waiting to be the witness and she kind of confronted her and Tina, like, saying, how dare you make this shit up. My daughter ran away. She like, bitch, basically, get out of. Tamara: She. Tamara: I'm like, you just let your daughter not be found. You didn't even try. And she talks about the other girl who also went missing, the girl who was with Ruth and m. She was found because her family gave a fuck. And they pressed and pressed and the loudest people in the room. And that is why she was. Tamara: Yeah. Classy: And. Right. And the two opposites, the polar opposites of these two families. And Tina was the only family, basically, that Ruth had. Tamara: Yeah. Tamara: And then the irony, like, at the end, so, like, kind of represented Tina. She had this affidavit to go get, this audio recording that was with Ruth's stuff that somehow I can't remember how this recording got to her. I kind of was murky on that. But, her childhood best friend, aka brother's wife, had this in her basement, and she went to retrieve it. And Tina stayed out of sight because she knew if she sees me, it's going to be this big thing. But it turned out she had this horrible reaction. Like, she felt. Tamara: So. Tamara: I felt like, you don't have the right to act. How sad you're acting. Tamara: Yeah, you totally. Classy: That's what turned on her. It was just plain old guilt. Yeah, plain old guilt. Because they realized nobody stood up for her. Even at the point when Ruth confronted her, the sister in law. And she's like, I really feel bad. And that was sucky, too, because at first she said she felt bad, and then she turned on her. Then it was like, but you shouldn't be acting this way. And it's like, yeah. Did you go to a mental institution because of what happened? We both was, testing the waters. With the lesbian, um, subplot, I also felt mean Tamara: That's the problem. Ruth explained that it was all in. Tamara: Mm Tamara: Ruth was going first. Classy: Don't that always know when somebody hits you, the last one is the one that gets caught. Tamara: Yes. And because of that, she was caught the wrong one. She was the one who was taking advantage. Classy: Yeah. Tamara: If the father had found them in the reverse situation, it would have been something different. Classy: Right. He would have told, whatever. The sister in laws, she would have told. Tamara: I forgot her name, her parents. Classy: And then the bad part is you marry. Classy: and another thing about Rebecca. Tamara: That's her name. Classy: Okay, Rebecca. about. With the lesbian, subplot, I also felt mean. Granted, like I said, I wasn't sure how it tied in, but I also thought she was doing that also, because during that time, it existed, but no one talked about it. And as she mentioned, they tried to try to hide it under the rug. Being a lesbian. The LGBtqia community has been around since the beginning of time. Classy: I think she kind of wanted to bring this up too, that because, I mean, this was what, the 70s? This was like with the freedom and people were living, trying to live their best life, but people were still trying to keep them down. So, I think her bringing that out as well. And like you said, just because you married, a man doesn't mean anything. Because her father married a woman. And that was it. Tamara: To blend. They knew they would be looked at funny, talked shit about hell, sent to. Classy: They had to keep jobs, they had to. Tamara: Sent to hospitals to be treated. So they blend. Classy: Converted. Tamara: Yep. Classy: So they had to, Yeah. Ruth's story at the end, it was. Tamara: me, you know, it take a lot for me to. Classy: I felt like I was a fly on the wall. Classy: Watching her story unfold. Tamara: Yeah. Tamara: And she did that so impeccably. And it was off page, all of it. Thank God. Because we didn't need it. We knew what happened. Classy: Yeah. Those were moments, right. And I think she did a service to the victims, which was her whole goal in writing this story. And the reason why she even named this story bright young women. Because the stupid ass judge. Tamara: Oh, my God, the judge who was so sympathetic toward him. Classy: You are a bright young, know. And the media called him charismatic and handsome. And I loved how she made us know that. No, he wasn't. He was not that handsome. He was an average Joe. He was not charismatic. Tamara: No. Classy: the women, from what I've heard, he creeped women out. Classy: the way he lured them is with injuries, because he knew, because he's. Tamara: A fucking creep, that the only way. Classy: He would get a woman to pay attention to him is he was weak, he was injured and needed help. Tamara: Yeah. Classy: That was the only way. Tamara: They feel bad for him and then they want to help. Classy: So how is that charismatic media? Tamara: It's trickery. Classy: Yeah, trickery and fuckery. He was charismatic. He was smart. No, he wasn't. He flunked out of, law school. And I think he had to go to night law school. And the judge is like, you could have been a great lawyer and a bright future. This man just killed women. Yeah, and this is what you say? Tamara: How dare you show him any kind of empathy. How dare you? Classy: I can just imagine his face like, yes, judge, I know my life would have been yourself. Tamara: Take care of yourself, young man. Classy: That's what I was saying, you mother. Tamara: Well, you know what I think. Noel did a lot of repetition with letting us know how stupid defendant is Okay, so speaking of him, like, saying what the truth is about the defendant, that is one thing if I had to criticize, is that I do feel like Noel did a lot of repetition with letting us know how stupid the defendant is. We know he's dumb. You've expressed it several times. Classy: Yes. Tamara: You don't have to tell me 15 times how stupid he is. We know. So I felt like that was very repetitive. M. Yeah, it's like it was 2 seconds from being a milk situation. If you all know what I'm talking about, right? Classy: If you know milk. Classy: And it does not do the body good, according to Tamra. M. I think she has it. When did we read that book? I think we might have did it in March. So I think Tamara probably hasn't drank milk for 2023. For the rest. Tamara: No, not at all. I get some creamer in my coffee and that's it. No milk? No milk. No milk. Classy: Not even oat milk. Tamara: But yeah, I think that was repetitive. I liked seeing the reporter through Pamela, that reporter. Yeah, I forgot about the reporter. There's a lot going on here But I think that also, what was also good, I liked seeing the reporter through Pamela, that reporter. Like, that was another kind of throwaway thing that we didn't really, but it kind of explains about the audio because he was interviewing this guy. So this guy, when he presented himself, I can't remember his name, but he was on the, oh, that guy is disgusting. How dare he? He deserves to go under the jail. Classy: Yeah, I can't remember his name too. Tamara: But when he got his chance, he was like, oh, I can make money. So guess what? I'm going to befriend him. I'm not going to write the article I promised you I would write. Tamara: I'm going to befriend him and write all these articles in books and make money. Tamara: Yeah. Tamara: And he turned out to get dementia. So in present day, Pamela was trying to. That's when they got the tapes. In present day, she was trying to figure like her sorority sister from back in the day said, hey, this guy is here and he's talking because she was a doctor, that works in this home for people that are lulu crazy. I don't say that lightly. He literally had dementia. He would have rage. Even. You have to sign a waiver to see him because he could attack you. which he did attack Pamela, but she came back for more and he ended up saying, I interviewed him and he told me a, b and c, which motivated her to get an affidavit to get her hands on that freedom of information. Tamara: Right. The stuff. Tamara: And that's what traced her back to Ruth's sister in law slash best friend. That is crazy. Classy: Yeah, I forgot about the reporter. I mean, when you brought it, like. Tamara: Oh, yeah, that guy was absolutely asinine. Like, he seemed like he was going to be on their side and he did a very abrupt about face. Classy: He did. He turned on them really quick. Tamara: Yeah. Tamara: Because he had to take care of his dad. He came up with some bullshit excuse. And then as Tina and Pamela left, now this is back in the 70s, as they left his house after confronting him, they ran over his mailbox. Classy: I had a visualization of that. Right? Tamara: M m. Yes. Like, fuck you and your mailbox. Classy: Right. With a big cloud of smoke behind them. Yeah. Tamara: There were a lot of layers in here. There's a lot going on. Classy: Yeah, it is. It really is. What did you think of the audiobook narrators Tamara: So quickly, what did you think of the audiobook narrators? Classy: Oh, I enjoyed them. at first it was like, when are we going to hear the male voice? Because it was like, I know it's a man in here, but when are we going to hear him? Tamara: Shocking too. Classy: Yeah, it really was, because I was just like, whoa. Because I forgot about him. Yeah, I forgot because you hear at the beginning read by so and so. Tamara: And so and so. Classy: And I was like, okay. And then it was jarring. Tamara: Yeah. Tamara: So he was the voice of the defendant and they were listening to the recording and he says, oh, it was such a crazy fiasco. Basically, once all three of us were in the same spot and it kind of like we didn't get to hear the rest of it. But they know what happened because he confessed. I like that we had that in there. It kind of like jarred me and it just kind of pay attention pay attention now. Classy: Yeah. It made it more real. If you thought Ruth's story brought it to light, to hear the defendant speak, it was just like, holy shit. Tamara: Yeah, it's frightening. Tamara: It's frightening. With audiobooks, you tell me who the narrators are And after all of that, I know I'm skipping back when we kind of talked about the narrators, but I kind of want to skip back to the very last part of the book that was 2021, day 15,780. Pamela and Tina, in their old age, go into the woods and they go to the area where they think Ruth's body is. Tamara: And they plant flowers and stuff and bushes they plant, they spend the day planting because what they learned from this other woman they met about how the soil will change and it will change the color of the plants and stuff, if a body has been there. Tamara: And it's like, damn. Tamara: Oh my God. Tamara: The hits keep coming right at the end of this. So between, I think, the narrators for Pamela and Tina, I mean, or Ruth, excuse me. Pamela and Ruth did an excellent job and so did the guy. Now, I don't know where the fourth narrator was exactly. Classy: But there were moments. Tamara: Where it felt like, wasn't there? Classy: Almost like a reporter or just somebody kind of like announcing something at one point, trying to remember. Because it was three females, right, and one male. But there were moments where it felt like, I can't remember, where did that come in that I did recognize a different voice. Tamara: If you come up with it, tell me, because I can't really think of where that other voice was right now. I'm kind of just flipping through the book to see if anything jumps out at me. Tamara: Okay. Classy: If I can remember because. Tamara: Yeah, because. Classy: Tina, like you said, tina's story was told either from Pam or so I. Tamara: Don'T think she ever had her own chapter with her heading. Name on a heading. I don't think so. I'm looking now. I don't believe she did. No. Classy: It was like some kind of announcement or some kind of report. Tamara: Yeah. Classy: If I can remember it. I took it off my scribbed everand, app. But yeah, I do remember a different voice. And I was like, oh, who is that? Tamara: Yeah. Was it cloud reporting? I don't know. Tamara: Maybe, but I don't see it in here. I just kind of went through that section and I didn't see it stand out like in italics, or anything. I didn't see anything. Classy: Okay. And that's something that I do not like. But anyway, but that is one of my, things that drives me crazy. With audiobooks, you tell me who the narrators are, but you do not tell me which character they are narrating, especially when you have three. Like two. I can tell. Right. Tamara: Uh-huh. Classy: When you have three or more, I need to know who is who. Tamara: Like a cast list. This person narrates for x character. Give it to us, please. Classy: Because they don't. Come on, guys. Audiobooks to us are like movies. Tamara: Yeah. Classy: So if you do a cast for a movie, I need the cast for a book. If it's three or more narrators, damn it, tell me. Because there are points where, especially if the narrator's voices sound similar. There were only a few male characters in this audiobook I don't know if you've done this before. I know we're getting off topic just a little bit. And I don't know if you've done this before, but I have gone and went through the catalog of some, narrators to try and figure out the very distinct, Ting or, tinny in their voice or something to say. Tamara: Okay. Classy: So I'll just say January Lavoie because she's one of my favorites. Okay. So January did. Pam and Janina did. Right. But I've done that before where I've gone and listened to them read something else, to try and figure out who was who. Tamara: But, yeah, I, just went on Simon and Schuster and they don't even have them listed. I mean, they have about the readers, but they don't have any of the names of what they did. Classy: no. Tamara: They didn't even put it here either. Classy: No. Whoever it was, it was a very brief moment and her voice was different. Tamara: Okay. Classy: If anybody listeners, if you did the audiobook and you can remember where that third, character, and I think she's listed third because I think the other two people. Tamara: So let's see, again, it is in order. Sutton Foster, Imani Jade Powers, Corey Brill and Chris Henry Coffey. So I'm thinking corey, brilliant female you're talking can actually, corey brill is a, then who was the other man's voice? So chris henry coffey is clearly, is that man. Tamara: Let me look. Let me look. Tamara: Yes, it is. So who else had a male voice in here? Was it the reporter? Did we get his point of view though? I thought we saw that through pamela. Tamara: No. Classy: Was it the freaking judge? Tamara: I don't know. M he could have been speaking for the reporter or the judge. But I don't want to go back. Classy: And listen to figure out, this is one of those where I wouldn't want to reread this at all. Tamara: I mean, to be fair, I felt this way about luckiest girl alive, too. I feel like the content, and I gave luckiest girl alive five stars. But I feel like, for the content, there's just some things that don't. Classy: I don't need to reread. Tamara: Rereading. Right. You just have one and done. You have the one experience. Yeah, I won't reread this. There's no way. Classy: Yeah. And the more I even talk about this story, I don't know, maybe it was too close to home for me, an unsolved mystery, in my life. Tamara: And. Classy: I don't know. But yes, this one was a tough. Yeah, it didn't, do anything for me. But, yeah. it may have been the judge, now that we think about it, because there was only a few male characters in here. Tamara: Yeah. The reporter, the judge, the detective at the beginning. Tamara: Yeah. Classy: And he wasn't. And we heard it from female point of view, so. Yeah. I wonder if she used that moment to say, because the judge, his only line was, you, bright young man. Tamara: Well, he talked to her in his chambers when he was questioning her. She was trying to persuade him. Classy: Right. Tamara: Pamela's father, too, but I don't know. He wouldn't have. Classy: I don't think he had a line. Tamara: Yeah. Classy: Yes, listeners, please let us know if you did the audio. Tamara: And pamela's boyfriend, can I just say, pamela's boyfriend was wackadocious when they went to new york and he was talking shit the whole time. And then when she's talking to her father about the case and trying to figure out if they have a case that they can sue, and he's like, yeah, I told her the same thing. And she's like, no, you didn't. You told me to drop it. Classy: I know. Tamara: I'm like, oh. Classy: And when she said she wanted to go to Columbia, he's like, yeah, I think talking about some. We're not friends. Tamara: Right? Let's go to this no name school together for a year, then have your dad write me a letter. I'm like, bitch, dump his ass immediately. Classy: Oh, gosh. Tamara: ASAP. Classy: Because I was like, please don't tell me she married this fucker at the end of the story. That was another thing. Yeah. I was like, please don't let me. Yeah. And then when she mentioned she married this really great guy who I was. Tamara: Like, thank God she's had in class at Columbia, by the way. She got this God awful haircut. It was hiding her hair this whole year, her freshman year, this guy saw her later, was like, pamela, is that you? Classy: I hated her boyfriend. Tamara: I'm sorry, but at the moment, tell me to not go to an Ivy League to wait for his ass. No. Classy: Yeah. Tamara: I really like this book. I like her trajectory as a character too And when she said my score was higher than yours, I just didn't want to tell you. Tamara: I was like, yeah, you are not it. You are not it. She didn't even like that guy. Classy: No, she was just doing it because that's what was expected of her. Tamara: Yeah. Classy: And I was just like, she's not like, you are so much better than this pamela. And I did like her trajectory as a character too, because she changed too, from the beginning. I mean, granted, she was always a strong person, but there were some moments of weakness that she kind of fell in line with the status of the role of a woman during that time. Tamara: Perfect, right? Classy: Yes. Tamara: Following the coloring and the lines. Tamara: Okay, I'm trying to think. Oh, my God. I feel like I could keep talking about this book. If you can't tell. I really like. Classy: Yes, you really like this book. Good for you. Tamara: Yay. Tamara: I needed this. Because you all know if you listen to the podcast, I had a doozy last week. I was so much. Classy: Yeah, I'm going to have to talk to you about that after, because I did listen on Patreon. And you was like, I shitted all over that book, but I didn't go back to see which one you did because I was doing something else. And I was like, it's okay. I'm going to talk to her tomorrow. She going to give me the skinny on it? Tamara: Yeah, I sure will. Because it was wet. I was trying and I thought about it. She's like. Classy: I can't do it. Not even for the culture? Tamara: No. Tamara: Oh, God. Tamara: and I have a feeling this is going to be you. I can't do it. I can't do it. But we'll see. Classy: Yeah. I smiled and I was like, yeah, I hear you, Tamara. Tamara: I can tell. Look, classy is trying not to be like, look, because there are times where. Classy: You will after I've talked to you. And I'm like, you know what? Tamara: You're right. Not this time. Tamara: Oh, man, my powers of persuasion have failed. A light in the dark surviving more than the defendant came out in 2023 Classy: The other thing that I found out, which did I find that, I found this out later and it also put the nail in the freaking coffin. Was, so not luckiest girl. This book came out, what, last year? Tamara: Yeah. Classy: Okay, so this book came out. Tamara: When? Classy: In 2023. September. September 2023. One of the surviving victims from the Tallahassee from the university, the Florida State University. Defendant killing also came out with a book, October 2023. And I felt like that was a dirty trick that was dirty of publishers. Here you have a surviving victim who's giving her story. Her book came out in October of 2023, and they published this in September. a fictitious story, probably. Ah, say, probably a much m bigger book. Tamara: Do you know it? Classy: It is called a light in the dark. Surviving more than Ted Bundy, Kathy Kleiner Rubin. So her and her roommate, were the ones, I believe in. the last room before he left, and the sorority house mom, president, or whatever, her car, the lights were shown into their bedroom. because what happened is, with their story, they had like a little trunk in between their beds, and the defendant came in there to attack them and he tripped over the trunk. And, this, survivor woke up and he had hit her roommate. But I guess the room was so small, or whatever it was, he hit one of them and the room was so small, he had a bat that when he swung it around to hit her and come back around, he hit the other one. yeah, because she woke up when he tripped. Tamara: Okay, so were these maybe one of the two girls that had injuries in this book? Classy: I believe so. Tamara: Because remember, there were one girl who had a bunch of teeth knocked out. Classy: Yep. And that's this one. And she's a lot of, there's a lot of little things. Tamara: Be. Okay, so I just looked this up on Amazon, and it looks like people are buying the two of these books together. Because you know how Amazon will tell you, frequently bought together. Tamara: Okay. Tamara: So I looked up the publisher for, a light in the dark surviving more than the defendant. And, this was published by a small independent publisher. Classy: Yeah. Chicago Review. Tamara: Yeah, they just, they didn't have the power, the money to push like they did with. Classy: Well, Jessica's a bigger name. She's Hollywood, she's a writer. Tamara: I just kind of feel like that's just publishing. I wouldn't knock the author for. Classy: No, no, I'm not knocking the know because they know this book was know, they know when things are coming out. I am not knocking, Jessica. Classy: But I have a feeling that at the same token, they knew this book was in the works and they were like, going to push this one out before. Tamara: I never even heard of that book. It wasn't anywhere on, my radar. Classy: Yeah, I was just like, okay, granted, this was before. I didn't find out that until after reading this book, but that just kind of rubbed me the wrong way too, because I was like, here, you got this lady, you know, who is a survivor in publishing. You guys probably push Jessica's book because she's going to make good money. We haven't rated this yet, so let's go ahead Tamara: All right, let's rate it. We haven't rated it, so let's go ahead. I'll let you go ahead. I know. Let's get it over with. Tamara: Classy. Tamara: Sitting here with a smile on her face. Tamara: A two. Classy: Tamara. Tamara: Damn. Tamara: I was wondering if you were going to be lenient and give it a three. You gave it a two? Classy: Almost did, but I'm standing my ground, aka Florida. Standing my ground. Tamara: Okay, well, I'm going to swing all the way to the other side, but it doesn't get a five. I'm sorry, it's not quite a five. She did halves, so if we did halves, this will fall in 4.5 range. But since we don't, and it wasn't that spec, it wasn't five, so it's a four. I'm issuing a four officially, which is a strong number, because, again, I don't give a lot of fours either. Classy: Right. I tried. I mean, she was pulling. She was pulling at the heartstrings, but. Tamara: I was just, yeah, I really liked it. I went into it. Not really sure if I would like it or not, to be honest. I tried to go in, with a blank slate. Tamara: Me too. Tamara: And I didn't even read the synopsis. I didn't read the synopsis. I knew it was about, Classy: I didn't either. Tamara: I knew it was about the defendant. Classy: I did not know it was about him until something triggered, and I was like, why does this damn story sound familiar? And then I went and I was like, but, yeah, I did not know it was about the defendant. Tamara: I had saw an interview where the author specifically talked about why she always refers to him as the defendant. Tamara: Before I read this, I saw why she did that. Classy: Okay. Tamara: And I was like, okay, so you get props off of that alone. So I kind of felt like I knew what the subject matter was going to be, but I didn't know how she was going to tackle. Nice try, but I think that I will read more. Jessica knoll. Are you done with her, or would you try her? Okay. Tamara: Yeah. This is a long episode, John. Uh, we don't usually go this long Wow. Tamara: This is a long episode, John. we don't usually go this long, but I feel like it just happened. Classy: Happy new year. Tamara: Happy new year. Because honestly, when I first started this, I'm like, oh, my God, this book was so sad. How are we going to talk about this for an hour, and we did. Tamara: Yeah. Okay. Classy: But it was a good discussion. It was a lovely discussion. Tamara: Actually, that's what I love about, talking about books with you and in book club is that even if you don't love the book, it still yields great discussion, because there's a lot of things to consider. Yes. The Shelf Addiction podcast is now available on iTunes and Spreaker all right, we are done, you guys, thanks for listening to this episode. If you are on Spreaker, there's an after show available for you right now you can listen to. And if you're on Patreon, of course, you guys have seen this after show before this episode comes out. So, yeah, we are done for today. Thanks for listening. It's been a fun time and we'll catch you guys next month. Take care of yourselves. Bye, guys. If you enjoyed today's episode and would like to show your support, there are a few things you can do. Head on over to Apple Podcasts and leave a positive five star review or like this episode on your favorite podcast player. It seems so simple, but it really helps me out. You can share this podcast with other book nerd friends or on your favorite social media space. You can also join the Shelf addiction Patreon family. For as little as $2 a month, you will help us produce even more awesome content for your ears. You can also consider joining the Shelf Addiction official Facebook group where we talk all things bookish and more in a safe space. The Shelf Addiction podcast is a part of the Nerdy Maven network. You can also reach us via email at info at shelf addiction.com. Thank you for listening.